This was originally posted to our old website in Jan 2019. It generated a lot of discussion (one public comment posted at the end, and many private messages and phone calls). Some folks just don’t want to hear any reasoning that contradicts their own ideas or desires. I stand by my reasoning and position. That is why I am reposting and editing/updating it below.
Close up of Remington 700 MLS feeding 209 primer into sealed breech
The Remington 700 ML/MLS & Ruger 77/50 muzzleloaders have been out of production for years now. These rifles can vary drastically in condition. Some have hardly been used. Others used, but well cared for. Some have been neglected. So their condition truly runs the full gambit. This is further complicated due to the original design and other 209 modifications sending fouling corrosive gasses throughout the bolt and the receiver. New owners can be further confused by the various kits that may have been fitted over the years.
Our kits fix blow back issues, don’t rely on most of the parts people tinker with, and base line the rifle to a solid known good state. Many folks find their way to this blog from a simple internet search. Frequently because they are having trouble like misfires, failure-to-fire, are tired of blow back, etc. Some just want to use BlackHorn209 powder (which will misfire or blooper if not sealed up, or paired with proper standard or magnum 209 primers). Other’s have a friend that fixed his woes with our system, or saw a modified rifle at the range using our awesome 209 conversion for Remington 700 ML’s and Ruger 77/50 rifles.
Loading a primer and sealing the breech with it on our Rem 700 ML/MLS 209 system
If you are new to our conversions, you may want to skip this blog post and read some of the others, then come back to this one, as it assumes you already know our conversions are awesome and fix your troubles.
However some folks are determined to do some even “heavier meddling” and make these rifles something different. I’ve looked at this and on a personal level, I’m not interested and won’t be doing anything more on my rifles than using our kits to seal the breech, and shoot Blackhorn209 powder.
We do have products that will aid those who still want to do that barrel swap and burn smokeless, but I myself won’t be going down that path. In this post I want to discuss this ‘heavy meddling’ and explain why I won’t do it myself.
The number one question I get concerning meddling and trying to do ‘more’ is converting to 209’s with our kit and shooting smokeless powder in the factory barrel: DON’T DO IT! It says it right on your rifle’s barrel. No kit will change the fact that the barrel is not safe for smokeless powder. I don’t care what you read on some forum, or what some guy on the range told you. DON’T DO IT! There are not any magical fairy smokeless powders for your rifle, and there isn’t any need to take that risk!
The problem here is that muzzle loader safe propellants (like Black Powder, Pyrodex, Triple Se7en, and BlackHorn209) have different burning properties than the wide spectrum that makes up modern smokeless powder. And that difference is what saves folks from blowing up guns (so long as they follow the manufacture’s rules, don’t double charge, double load, etc). I cannot emphasize enough how using only a muzzle loader safe propellant (and using a witness mark on the ram rod to know the rifle is loaded and avoid a double charge) is the key to enjoying this sport safely.
That said, some rifles, with special barrels are made to use certain types of smokeless powder. However, your Remington nor Ruger is not one of them.
Yes, some folks swap barrels to make a smokeless gun. They of course are 100% on their own, and liable for their own technical problems and safety issues. If it is possible to do a barrel swap, and may be legal in some states to hunt on some hunts with a smokeless muzzle loader… why do it? What really are you going to get and at what cost? Typically those pursuing smokeless want faster, flatter shooting, harder hitting rifles, and think that they need to go smokeless to get better performance. But how much increase in range or velocity will you get versus the $$$$$ spent? How much heavier or more awkward of a rifle will you make? Will it group any better than what you started with?
Doesn’t the original leaky rifle, with black powder, already have what it takes to kill anything in North America?!?! Our kits seals up those breach leaks and makes it reliable. Many modern muzzle loading propellants already out perform black powder. These rifles with their factory barrels have a reputation of being very accurate. Do you really need more than that?
A customer’s rifle 209 converted rifle (original barrel) and his group (click picture above to read more customers’ feedback)
I believe the factory rifle (with our 209 kit) is good enough: my rifles shoot reliably, accurately, and harvest deer (the largest game I can kill around here is Black Bear, but Black Bear isn’t my thing… but I’m sure my rifles could easily handle Black Bear). I’m confident my rifles, with our kit and factory barrels, will kill any North American game to 200 yds. I’m convinced that anyone with a Remington 700 ML/MLS or Ruger 77/50 in good shape and wants to have a top performing muzzle loader, only needs to use our kit, standard 209 primers, Blackhorn209, sabots, and jacketed hand gun bullets or muzzle loader specific bullets.
Steve P, from Lake Orion, Michigan: 130 yard shot, 120gr by volume of Black Horn 209, Parker Ballistic Extreme 300gr and the Badger Ridge bolt upgrade, Timney trigger.
But to continue the comparison: rifles re-barreled for smokeless almost always have much longer, heavier barrels. It must be emphasized that the longer barrel itself gives an increase in velocity… all things being the same: longer barrels increase velocity. Or in other-words, shooting the same powder charge and projectile combination in a longer barrel will generate more velocity. This is because the projectile is in the barrel longer, getting pushed by expanding gasses for longer, so more energy (AKA velocity) is transferred to the projectile.
But with BlackHorn209, and your factory barrel, you don’t have to go smokeless to get more velocity. At heavier bullet weights, (like 275gr and up) I think you will find BlackHorn209 out performs all other muzzle loader safe propellants. And if you were to chronograph a safe smokeless load in a barrel made for smokeless, and of the same length as the factory barrel, against a BlackHorn209 charge (both using the same 300gr projectile), the BlackHorn209 load wouldn’t be too far behind the smokeless. By too far behind, I’m talking a couple/three hundred feet per second. And lets be honest, 200 to 300 FPS is not much of an increase in range or killing power.
Back of a Blackhorn 209 bottle. Note what it says about primers, compatible sealed systems, and min/max loads
In general barrel swaps cost around $1200.00 [this was back in 2019: the cost certainly has increased]. Frequently more, occasionally less if you do a lot of the work yourself. To consider what our kit does to a standard rifle vs doing a barrel swap, you have to consider the cost against the potential performance increases. And I don’t think that $1200 is worth it. Especially because BlackHorn209 is readily available, and safe! You must realize that if you get something wrong with the smokeless gun, you are more probable to have a KABOOM!
Remember, a longer barrel is essentially what the newer Remington 700 Ultimate Muzzle Loader (UML) has over the older Remington 700 ML/MLS. The Ultimate is a longer, heavier rifle. It is not as handy, and costs so much more than a good used MLS. Plus I understand Remington no longer will warranty the rifle if its been shot with BlackHorn209, so in that case, you are restricted in the powders you can use. I’ve had plenty of customers tell me they sold their Ultimate and got a used 700 MLS rifle and our kit because it does the job, is more handy, easier to carry, and actually saved them $ because its cheaper over all.
I have a Savage 10ML2, new in the box. I’ve never shot it! Why? Because its super long and super heavy: my Remington 700 ML’s and Ruger 77/50’s (with their original barrels) get the job done and are so much lighter and handier. And I don’t go deer hunting from a bench… I’m walking out to the fields and woods, climbing up into tree stands, up ladders, etc. My Remington and Ruger rifles with their factory barrels win hands down overall when it comes to hunting.
So for me, I wouldn’t entertain a barrel swap unless the barrel was not serviceable. And even then its probably cheaper (and definitely easier) to just buy another used 700 MLS rifle with a factory barrel! Or even easier and cheaper to find a ‘take off’ barrel on Ebay from someone’s smokeless build. I get nearly the same performance from my factory barreled rifles, and without all the cost, weight, awkward handling, and added trouble of doing the work to swap a barrel. Dollars & work in vs performance out: I’m tickled pink with our kit and my factory barrels.
If you are tired of the clean up of Black Powder substitutes, and wanting to get away from them for that reason, BlackHorn209 comes out ahead there too. Blackhorn209 cleans up great with standard gun cleaning solvents, just like a smokeless gun. You can read more about that by clicking the posts here in the Badger’s Den (organized by topic).
All that said: any muzzleloader safe propellant works great in the Remington and Ruger original barrels (with our kits installed on the bolt and shooting saboted projectiles). It is so much easier just to convert to our system and get great performance, I don’t think I’ll ever re-barrel a rifle and go smokeless.
But if you are absolutely set on swapping barrels, we offer “half kits.” Smokeless conversions usually use a custom breech plug that sits deeper into the breech (I typically recommend using a Savage 10 ML2 breech plug if you are going to swap barrels). So, folks putting a new barrel on a Remington will probably want a longer nose. Our long nose protrudes farther forward and will not work with our standard breech plug, nor the original barrel. The cost is the same for a half kit with a long nose or a standard nose (just tell us in the “note to seller” portion of check out if you want a long nose).
This bolt has a long nose: it goes about .085″ deeper, but won’t work with a OEM barrel
Standard Nose bolt (note you can see more of the breech plug exposed). Works with OEM barrel and standard Badger Ridge Breech plug
Our Ruger conversions don’t have longer nose options: only the Remington has that option and it’s only for barrel swaps.
ONE LAST COMMENT ON BARREL SWAPS: IF YOU SWAP THE BARREL YOU OWE IT TO WHO EVER USES THE RIFLE AFTER YOU SELL IT (OR PASS IT ON TO) TO INSCRIBE ON IT SPECIFICATIONS:
#1: Its caliber, ie “.45 CAL”
#2: What powder is safe in it: “Use ONLY BLACK POWDER/BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTES” &/or “USE ONLY APPROVED SMOKELESS POWDERS AT APPROVED QUANTITIES” etc.
So there you have it. I got on my soap box, and told folks that I’ll sell them what they want, but I won’t necessarily agree with them that they ‘need’ it.
That’s my advice, because that is what I use and resolved to myself.
Alas, the customer is always right!
Preserving a public comment/reply below
Comment from Matt 9/24/2021
A new, prefit barrel costs $250-350, a 2 taps costs $40, a grade 9 bolt costs $2, a few small stainless bolts (replaceable vent liner) costs $5, 4 drill bits cost $10-$15, 20 cut down .308 cases are going to run you about $30 (and solve the blowback issue + allow the use of rifle primers)… for a rough total of $440… where is the rest of the $1200 coming from, unless you pay someone else to entirely convert your rifle for you? Basic knowledge of tools, attention to detail, and a basic understanding how firearms work are all that is really required.
Smokeless doesn’t necessarily mean more pressure, nor does it mean more velocity… you have to load it that way for it to be so. Bluedot has a similar burn rate to BH209 (higher ignition temps, however), and RedDot-Unique (on Hodgdon’s supplied burn charts) offer burn rates similar to common BP. You don’t have to use 150gr charges of slow rifle powder and pistol bullets lol.
BP is an explosive, it’s pressure curve is very short and spikey, in order to generate the necessary volume of gas to get the velocity, you have to generate quite high pressures. Smokeless, especially the slow shot powders and fast rifle powders, allow you to achieve the same velocities at lower breech pressures. You also use considerably less smokeless to accomplish the same velocities than you will BH209 or BP, which saves a lot of money.
Reply from Badger Ridge (Tom) 9/24/2021
I think you are mixing a bunch of half truths and and oversimplifying to justify your meddling. If you want to meddle, go ahead, but I’d suggest you slow down and quit trying to push and rail against those of us urging caution, not seeing the value in such meddling, and asking simple questions like: “What are the real risks vs the rewards? What are you trading away? Are you over simplifying & ignoring? What is the cost of getting it wrong? Who pays it?”
Please, don’t try to use this site to paint a false picture: that building a smokeless setup as something it isn’t. It isn’t simple and easy nor is it super safe. But again, if you want to meddle, its your life. Just don’t push it on others.
Your argument on cost is flawed: first, I specifically say that the costs can vary due to how much you can do yourself). How much did the tooling to make custom parts cost? How much would you have to pay a skilled technician for their knowledge, time, and tools? If you don’t like my $1200 round figure you must assume most folks are able to DIY, and that you don’t have to account for labor costs (and I said as much in my post)
Further, you also assume that you are correct in all your broadly expressed assumptions & over simplifications on various smokeless powder burn properties (you are not). You ignore the probability of, and the effects of, overcharging with smokeless in a muzzle loader. You ignore the pertinent differences in black powder’s ‘burn rate/spikey curve’ that make it much less dangerous to over charge with.
Who analyzed those pressure curves, with what tools, and then engineered a system to contain them? What safety factor did they build into the system? (BUT OVER CHARGING IS BAD IN ANY SITUATION). People make mistakes. Which one do you want going KABOOM with your hand on the fore-end, and face just behind the action?
Another issue with your post seems that you are assuming we are discussing using a centerfire action (made to feed 308 cases and take smokeless pressures). The rifles I’m discussing lack recoil lugs and also don’t have the ability to utilize 308 cases as primer carriers… I’ve discussed primer carrier ignition systems like used on the Ultimate elsewhere (in the Badger’s Den and our FAQ)… and why we abandoned the plan to convert muzzle loaders to use them. 209 systems are simpler and more effective.
When you look at the whole of those shooting muzzle loaders, very few relatively, have the ability to prime and de-prime cases. They are better served by using 209s in a system to puts most of the wear on a 209 that is readily obtained and then discarded after use. Of course if you are set up to reload that’s an easy fix, but a very bad point to over look from the majority perspective.
So with these old muzzle loaders, that aren’t designed for smokeless, aren’t safe for smokeless, can’t handle 308 sized cartridge cases, but yet have a great propellant (with tons of engineering behind it) like BH209 available… its still the smarter move just to put our kit on the old leaky breech rifle, use BH209, and avoid the heavy meddling.
A little knowledge on a subject is dangerous… knowing enough to believe you understand and are competent, but not knowing enough to know that you don’t understand everything is a bad place. To get through that state, one typically requires something called wisdom.
If you can come up with all the complicated stuff to convert/re-barrel a rifle, but don’t value what I’m trying to show you here… please move on.
But alas you are free to meddle. Just don’t expect me to support it as a ‘good’ or ‘best move’. Nor will I urge others to put so much resources into trying to get such little performance increase when its so safe and easy and to get just about the same thing with our kit and BH209.
This was originally posted at our old website back in July of 2016. Reposting and updateding it here
We sell our Remington 700ML 209 conversion to folks who hunt all 50 states and even Canada. And I must say that I’ve seen some states make folks jump through a bunch of hoops, while others don’t. Its all tied to each state’s rules varying drastically. Some are simple, common sense, and easy to follow (and I expect easy for their game wardens to enforce). Others, require someone to have a law and engineering degree to determine what they can take to the field for any given hunt.
Rem 700 MLS feeding a 209 primer into a sealed breech system
So if you are considering our conversion, I hope to help those who live in those troubled states with some simple facts:
1. Our system uses 209 shot shell primers 2. It completely seals the 209 primer into the breech plug 3. These rifles we convert use inline actions 4. You can use any Black Powder or black powder substitute with our kit (Pellets, loose powder, whatever… just follow the Remington manual/directions on the bottle for quantity of powder to use) So for most states and most hunts, you won’t find a better option than our 209 conversion. It will take the old Remington 700ML/MLS and Ruger 77/50 and turn them into reliable big game harvesting brutes. However you are responsible for researching the rules for your individual state.
To figure out the answer’s for your specific state the biggest questions to answer in order are:
Do the rules allow 209 shot shell primers?
Do they prohibit sealed in-line ignition systems?
As far as I know Canada, and most of the US allow sealed breech 209s.
As of this writing Idaho & Oregon are the only jurisdictions prohibiting sealed breech 209’s (and that is only on some dedicated muzzle loader hunts… ie you can use a sealed breech muzzle loader during the regular firearms seasons in many states). There are other special hunts in other states (Pensylvania, Montana, etc) that don’t allow inlines much less 209’s… but we’ll ignore them (because they already ban the 700 ML/MLS and Ruger 77/50’s just for being in-lines).
So long as you can use 209’s and seal them up, you won’t find a better option for your Remington 700 ML/MLS or Ruger 77-50 than what you find here.
If you have a Ruger 77-50 and hunt somewhere where you can use sealed ignition on one hunt but not another, we sell entire bolts . This lets you swap between sealed 209’s and the original leaky OEM system (We used to offer this for Remington’s too, but that is out of stock for the foreseeable future).
Further down the rabbit hole: Trying to better understand our clients’ needs, I’ve spent the hours reading the various rules the 50 states have for muzzle-loader hunts. I lack the literary skill to describe the dull throbbing pain those regulations produced in my skull. I appreciate simple common sense approaches to regulations, so I feel it’s time to get on my soap box:
It seems traditionalists with lofty notions have hi-jacked hunting regulations in some states, and verbose rule writers dominate most others. To me, hunting regulations should be simple and boil down to promoting the safe and effective harvesting of the right number of game animals in a jurisdiction. I believe in individual freedoms, and always felt hunting, and the choices I made while hunting were a great expression of that freedom. So I don’t understand why anyone would stand by and allow their state to -force- people into using ignition systems, powders, or projectiles that would be anything other than those most probable to make a safe, quick, humane kill. I’m all for those who want to do it like their forefathers did. But to force anyone to hunt in that manner, especially if it is less effective, is nuts. There is a reason we developed better ignition systems, better powder, and projectiles: its called progress. Today we have better options that kill better, make better wound channels, and tend to produce less lost or wounded game. These same better ways are safer, and don’t blast the shooter with blow back and primer fragments. Those traditionalist ideals seem to have produced regulations that go counter to safe, humane kills, and true liberty.
Some would argue that complex regulation that forces old, out-dated, less effective means, reduces the number of game taken. I can see restricting someone to a single shot rifle with open sights doing that, but other wise, I doubt that prohibiting modern sabots, hand gun bullets, etc will reduce the number of game shot at.
So I’d argue that the rules that force traditional solutions probably increase the number of animals wounded and lost. And thus they probably reduce the number of game that get drug out of the woods. On the surface that produces statistics that say the number of animals taken was reduced. The significant difference being: the wounded animals that are not recovered are not recorded as kills. Wounded animals typically suffer a slow painful death. Making regulations that encourage wounding game is a shame. It’s especially shameful quoting tainted statistics to make the case.
I haven’t seen a state with ideal regulations but I think Wyoming’s was as a simple as they get. You can be sure sure you are in compliance, and game wardens know what to enforce:
“For taking of bighorn sheep, elk moose, mountain goat, black bear, grizzly bear, deer, mountain lion, antelope or gray wolf by the use of a firearm a hunter shall use:
Any muzzle-loading rifle or muzzleloading pistol handgun of at least .40 caliber and firing a lead or expanding point bullet using a charge of at least 50 grains of black powder or its equivalent.”
And while I don’t endorse the stuff below that prohibits multiple barrels, or restricts propellants (some rifles are designed to use smokeless powder: they produce more energy, and thus are more humane killers). Anyways I am partial to how Utah’s reads and gives solid guidance on projectile selection to promote humane kills:
“To hunt big game with a muzzleloader, your muzzleloader must meet all of the following requirements:
It can be loaded only from the muzzle and can use either open sights, peep sights, or fixed or variable zoom scope. It can have only one barrel, and the barrel must be at least 18 inches long.
It cannot be capable of firing more than once without being reloaded.
The powder and bullet — or powder, sabot and bullet — cannot be bonded together as one unit for loading.
It must be loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. The black powder or black power substitute cannot contain smokeless powder, but may contain some nitrocellulose.
To hunt big game, you must use a lead or expanding bullet or projectile that’s at least 40 caliber in size.
If you’re hunting deer or pronghorn, your bullet must be 130 grains or heavier, or your sabot must be 170 grains or heavier. Truly over all, I favor Virgina’s rules; I wish all 50 states would adopt them as I feel they are a good balance on allowing freedom of choice but guaranteeing common sense, killing power (sorry muzzle loading pistol guys), and safety. I think they do a good job of bringing clarity to folk who are familiar with the issues and variety of rules from across the nation:
If you’re hunting elk, moose, bison, bighorn sheep or Rocky Mountain goats, you must use a 210-grain or heavier bullet, or a sabot bullet that’s at least 240 grains.”
Truly over all, I favor Virgina’s rules; I wish all 50 states would adopt them as I feel they are a good balance on allowing freedom of choice but guaranteeing common sense, killing power (sorry muzzle loading pistol guys), and safety. I think they do a good job of bringing clarity to folk who are familiar with the issues and variety of rules from across the nation:
“Only muzzleloading firearms, .45 caliber or larger, loaded from the muzzle of the gun. Muzzleloading firearms must be single shot, capable of firing only a single bullet or saboted bullet (.38 caliber or larger). Flintlock, percussion, or electronic ignitions are permitted. It is unlawful to have in immediate possession any firearm other than a muzzleloading gun while hunting with a muzzleloader. (See exception for valid concealed handgun permit holders on page 18.) It is unlawful to use muzzleloading pistols. Must use at least 50 grains of black powder or black powder equivalent.
Smokeless powder is allowed in muzzleloading firearms designed for it. Never use smokeless powder of any type in any quantity in a muzzle-loading firearm that is not specifically designed for it. Scopes are permitted. For the purposes of transportation in a vehicle, muzzleloading firearms are considered “unloaded” when all powder has been removed from the flashpan, or the percussion cap, primer, or battery has been removed from the firearm.
For complete safety, shooting into soft ground should empty a muzzleloader”
I’m sure any state could care less about my opinion. If you live in a state with crazy muzzle loader regulations that just don’t make sense, I urge you to engage your legislature and adopt a simple solutions that promote quick safe humane kills over traditional ideals like those I offer above.
Regulations change, and errors can be made, this post was old when I reposted it: Please read your states rules and don’t rely on anything I posted here as being infallible.
I’m goint to perserve one of the back and forth comments this spurred by putting them below:
Comment from John Mohler 7/20/2020
I know it’s only been a few years that you wrote this but I just ran into it.
As someone who has been involved in drafting hunting regulations let me help you out with this.
Traditional weapons seasons are just that. The natural progression of muzzleloaders has lead to what we call centerfire bolt action rifles with metallic cartridges. If your muzzleloader, and all its progress, allows you to effectively take game at 500 yards then you are free to use it in the general firearms season with all the centerfire hunters who think themselves capable of shooting at these distances.
A State has to draw the line somewhere and that line should be based on the effective range of a weapon. Muzzleloader seasons should be restricted to those firearms with a max effective range somewhere between 100 and 150 yards.
Reply from Badger RIdge (11-20-20)
Thanks for taking the time to write. Your opinion is noted. You seem to be defending making bad rules. Then put the goals rule making accomplishes. Those don’t have to be competing objectives. So I’m not sure you understand the point of this article:
1- The rules vary so much between states, that it is difficult to get a 50 state solution. This shouldn’t be. The simpler states’ regulations work (and do what you are saying about limiting range, shots fired and such [which are good wildlife management goals]). But good states rules are simple and easy to follow. Seems like the examples of good rules I gave accomplish the goals of game management, safety, and promote out of state hunters coming and enjoying the state’s game. As out of state hunters tend to pay more fees and bring more $… seems like that would benefit all, and lessen head aches, even from a bureaucratic perspective.
2- Limiting/Prohibiting sabots doesn’t do anything good. Sabots just allow one to use jacketed hand gun bullets. Which don’t do anything other than give good controlled expansion at both high and low velocities. This benefits the game receiving the projectile (it dies a more humane death over a wider range of projectile velocities), and generally improves the ratio of wounded to harvested animals. If there is some bad thing about sabots that I missed, please be specific in address it. Also if sabot’s are bad or give you any real advantage in accuracy or range, please explain why 47 out of 50 states allow them (on top of the entire country of Canada). Also please explain why the current long range muzzle loaders wining competitors aren’t using sabots nor BlackHorn209 powder? (They are using bore riding bullets pushed through forming dies and smokeless powder). Sabots and blackhorn209 are good, and better than traditional blackpowder and patched round balls, but don’t give you lazer like 500yd accuracy.
Limiting newer (and arguably safer) powders like BlackHorn209, and projectiles (sabots and modern handgun bullets) from being used is just silly. They are certified muzzle loader safe, and are safer and better than Black Powder. Why is it OK to use one but not another? Please explain to me how you are helping your residents by forcing them to use less safe powders? (just look at the MSDS and handling precautions of the various powders and you will see BlackHorn209 is much safer)… Or forcing your hunters to get creative in their projectile selection (beyond simple guides on how heavy of a projectile to use or minimum charges, banning sabots, or any other particular projectile is counter productive).
If you think I’m wrong, please prove it, rather than just stating opinion.
I think you will find that rules prohibiting Sabots is truly tied to very vocal ‘traditionalists’ monopolizing the rule making.
I’d hope that as a rule writer you’d value simple effective rules. I know I did when I was flying military aircraft: simple rules helped promote safe, standard aircraft operations across the globe. However when they are verbose, overly specific/restrictive, complicated, or different in a different jurisdiction they do nothing but give a good feeling to the bureaucrat writing them, and complicate the safe operation of potentially dangerous devices.
Tom from Badger Ridge
PS: after we tackle sabots, then you can explain how a hotter more reliable and sealed combustion system (209 primers that are sealed) are anything detrimental… they are just plain safer and more reliable. You don’t get crap blown in the face (unsafe) and don’t really increase effective range…
With our Remington 700 ML 209 conversion kit, we get very few complaints or requests for assistance compared to the number of kits sold and installed. The few instances usually are tied to not fully comprehending the kit’s components and how to maintain them. Of these, most center around the Badger Ridge Hunter 209 Breech plug. There is a good section in our FAQ on the breech plug and how to maintain it.
The other complaints center around not understanding the subtle differences when using Blackhorn209. This was posted to our old website back in May of 2016 (moving it here to preserve and update it)
TROUBLE SHOOTING AND COMMON MISTAKES
You must read and understand the Remington 700ML owners manual prior to using our conversion kit. Using our 209 conversion replaces the breech plug; so you have to apply what the Remington 700ML Owner’s Manual says about nipples, flash holes, and caps to flash channels, vent liners, and 209 primers.
Failure to Fire, Misfires, Hang-Fires, Bloopers, etc:
Typically these sorts of malfunctions are caused by one or a combination of: -1. Using weak ‘muzzleloader’ 209 primers with Blackhorn209 -2. Obstructions or contaminants in the flash chamber (improper maintenance) -3. Failure to seal and compact the charge when using Blackhorn 209. -4. Not replacing the mainspring during conversion/poorly installed conversion, improper firing pin protrusion, using oils/grease that gel when cold, failing to properly reassemble after maintenance, etc.
First and foremost: The mainspring should be replaced during conversion. The original configuration subjected the mainspring to lots of corrosive blow-back, heat, and extra cycles. All quickly reduce its effectiveness. If not replaced, light and inconsistent primer strikes are probable. Also if the firing pin protrusion was not set properly, or there is a bur, rust, or crud causing the firing pin to hang up, failures to fire are probable. We always replace the mainspring as part of our installation service and include a new mainspring with our kits. If you did it yourself and are having trouble with detonating the primer: Take the rifle to a competent gunsmith to remedy these or any other unsafe or abnormal condition, or buy our bolt cleaning and mainspring replacment service and we’ll take a look at it.
Use only standard shotshell, full powered 209 primers with Blackhorn209. The primer must be sealed!!!
Properly sealed discharged 209 primers, this is what a fired 209 primer should look like
Besides leaking at the primer. It is critical that you understand: Any primer that says “inline Muzzle loader” or is titled by a black powder subsitue, or says it has reduce fouling or a “KleenBore” is too weak for BlackHorn209. I wrote a lenghty blog post about this if you want more details.
These Remington KleaBore muzzleloader 209 primers are too weak for BlackHorn209
These Winchester 777 muzzleloader 209 primers are too weak for BlackHorn209 powder
Remedies for obstructions or contaminants in the flash chamber/improper maintenance: — Clean the flash channel of the breech plug with a 7/32 drill bit (only use your fingers and light pressure… do not remove metal!!!) Use standard bore cleaning solvents and round brushes to dissolve and scrub away any remaining contaminates.
–Clean the flash channel of the vent liner with torch tip cleaners. Break cleaner works well to remove oils and greases and any remnants, some guys use IsoPropal Alchohol (IPA). You should see a nice round flash hole when you hold the breech plug up to a light source, and the expansion chamber between the flash hole (vent liner) should be free of debris, dry and clean.
Breech plug, vent liner removed. Vent liner being cleaned by torch tip cleaner.
Remove any lubricants, greases, or oils in the flash channel prior to loading. — Keep anti-seize only on the threads of the breech plug and vent liner; anti-seize or any other lubricant will reduce primer heat and cause ignition problems when in the flash chamber, or face of the breech plug.
— Swab out any excess oil left in the barrel with a dry patch before loading. You can swab it out (typically with an evaporating solvent), or sometimes even blast it out with an aersol can (like brake cleaner).
— After doing the stuff above: Some guys will take an unloaded rifle, and prior to loading, pop one primer and watch to ensure flame/lots of air shoots out the end of the muzzle to ensure the flash path is clear and dry.
In cold climates avoid greases and oils that gel or congeal when cold — We use and recommend only dry PTFE lubes on the firing pin assembly
If you are using full powered primers and doing the above maintenance and still having issues only when using Blackhorn209 (typically diagnosed by successfully and repeatedly igniting a load of other easier to ignite black powder substitute), the cause is most likely a poor seal on the primer or projectile.
Over Pressure and leaking 209s
Poor primer seal can also be diagnosed by having soot or blow back on the sides of the 209 primers; only the primer’s face should have soot on it (check out the picture above)
ONLY SABOTS AND HORNADY BORE DRIVERS HAVE A SOLID REPUTATION OF SEALING THE PROJECTILE:
Most other conicals (PowerBelts, Federal B.O.R. Lock, minie balls, etc) will not adequately seal and will give bloopers and misfires!
BOTTOM LINE METHODS TO GET RELIABILITY WITH BLACKHORN209
— Seal Primer: full power 209 shot shell primer swaged and sealed properly into the breech plug; one should feel some resistance when closing the bolt with a primer in the nose. This is because the primer is being swaged into and sealing the breech plug. Failure for the primer to seal is commonly caused by over or excessive breech plug tuning, or poor primer fit. Correct by changing to a larger size brand of primers (Winchester are the skinnest, CCI-Federal-Remington are next, then foreign tend to be bigger), or purchase a new breech plug & do not over tune.
— Change projectile: Powerbelts, Bore Locks, Minet, Lubed conicals, Minnie-balls, etc do not fully seal (aka obturate) until the powder charge expands and presses them into the rifling grooves. Use snug fitting sabots with properly sized bullets with Blackhorn209. Some report great results with the Hornady Bore Driver bullets.
— Change powder: Black Powder and its other substitutes will combust easily and work OK when not completely sealed, but Blackhorn209 needs a good seal for proper ignition. Changing powders when one has a a poor seal is circumventing the problem rather than fixing it.
So in summary:
1> You need to make sure your 209 conversion kit is properly installed 2> You still have to clean the crud out of the flash channel like you would any muzzleloader, it just requires a few different tools. In many ways it is easier than taking care of a side lock. Dry PTFE lubes work great on the firing pin and action at all temperatures (hot and cold). 3> When you change to Blackhorn209 those weak 209 black powder primers aren’t going to do it. 4> And the old school, easy load, seals with combustion, projectiles don’t work well with Blackhorn209 neither.Keep it simple: Use our kit with modern sabots and properly sized bullets, standard 209 primers that swage and seal, and you’ll nearly certainly be malfunction and blow back free.
This was originally posted at our oldwebsite many times. Reposting it here.
We’ve been selling and installing our great 209 conversions for years now. And I’ve noticed my questions and sales following trends influenced by the various hunting seasons and their associated rules. This time of year many folks are getting ready for Colorado’s muzzle loader season, typically focusing on harvesting an elk. So I frequently edit and re-post this one. The commentary here was also added the to the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions).
Close up of Remington 700 MLS feeding 209 primer into sealed breech
Q: I hunt in Colorado, sabots are not allowed for hunting during muzzleloader season in Colorado. I want to use your awesome 209 conversion, but you say you recommend sabots with jacketed handgun bullets. What are my options?
A: Short answer is our kit will work great with any projectile. I’ve found Pyrodex, Triple Se7en, and black powder work best with non sabot projectiles. So I suggest that you use our kit and any muzzle loader safe powder (besides BlackHorn209) for your Colorado hunts with Colorado legal projectiles.
UPDATE TO ADD: Some folks are reporting good results with the new Hornady Bore-Driver bullets and BlackHorn209 powder. They have a substantial plastic base on them that seems to seal well and function with BlackHorn209. You may want to try it out yourself.
Long answer:
I realize not all 50 state have the same rules. And some state’s rules are just plain silly. I wrote a blog post about that.
The main thing to remember here: the powder you chose must be compatible with the projectiles you use.
Animated Gif Loading primer in Remington 700 209 sealed breech
Our kit will seal the breech, which keeps the crud out of the bolt and action no matter what muzzle loader safe propellant you chose. Our kit is compatible with all muzzle loader safe propellants: pellets, loose powder, etc. Also using 209’s will give you more ignition heat and thus more reliable ignition over caps. And seeing our system keeps the crud sealed into the breech plug, the 209 is ignited reliably too. But the powder and projectile choice is up to the shooter. Read the manuals/instructions and follow them when developing loads.
Blackhorn209 powder is different from Pyrodex & Triple7even: To be reliable BlackHorn209 needs to be fully sealed; i.e. sealed at the breech (which our kit does), and sealed at the projectile. Minnie balls, minet, power belts, B.O.R. Lock MZ and other easy loading projectiles that are legal for Colorado muzzleloading, don’t usually seal until the powder combusts and forces them into the grooves. This deformation sealing the bore after combustion is called obturation. The problem is BlackHorn209 doesn’t burn well until it’s sealed and can build pressure. So it’s likely to have bloopers, miss fires, and hang fires with obturating projectiles. Sabots seal well to start, thus if you are using BlackHorn209, it’s recommended to use sabots.
Though the new Hornady Bore Driver bullets are reported to seal well and work with BlackHorn209, I haven’t tried them myself.
Never use smokeless powder in your Remington/Ruger! It says it right on the barrel!
Because Colorado doesn’t allow sabots during the muzzle loader seasons I would stay away from Blackhorn209. (or with a lot of trial, I may try the Hornady Bore Drivers).
Otherwise, If I was hunting in Colorado, I’d use our kit, choose a heavy projectile (250gr or more) that seals on ignition: Hornady BoreDriver, Thor, minie ball, lead conical, etc. But without a lot of testing, I wouldn’t use BlackHorn209; I’d try Triple7even, or Pyrodex. Although they are not as easy to clean, and will foul the barrel, they are very easy to ignite even when not sealed, and will obturate the projectile. Black powder will work just fine with these sorts of projectiles too.
I do have a few clients that report success with Blackhorn209 and magnum primers (CCI 209M or Federal 209A) using Hornady FPB’s or its aforementioned replacement: Bore Driver… and also with Thor bullets. I also had one that said the Thors worked well at the range, but didn’t fire when he had a nice bull in his sights. He said it was extremely chilly that morning, his rifle was cold soaked, and the Blackhorn209 wouldn’t go bang. He was very frustrated. I’ve heard the same report from folks using Powerbelts: worked ok at the range, but when cold soaked their rifle woulsn’t go bang: I suspect it was because the projectile shrunk with the cold, and the copper jacket or plastic skirt wasn’t quite as malleable. Also cold powder is just a bit harder to get burning, and thus that setup was unable to obturate the looser projectile and keep the BlackHorn209 burning. So I wouldn’t use BlackHorn to hunt with most obturating projectiles.
Thus without a lot of testing (like putting a loaded rifle in a freezer, pulling it out and shooting the combo… repeatedly). I would stick with Pyrodex or TripleSeven for Colorado muzzle loader hunting: they will go bang with an obturating bore riding projectile when you need it, even when it is very cold.Or I would use Hornady Bore Drivers (they have a big plastic base and seem to seal well).
Just about everywhere else, I recommend sabots because they have been accurate, easy to load, and jacketed hand gun bullets have always been very effective for me. Whatever powder you chose, the velocities your muzzle loader will produce are essentially the same that good jacketed handgun bullets are designed for. They tend to kill quickly and bring home game. Sabots are allowed in most states, so that’s what I usually recommend.
Long-term: If I voted in Colorado, I’d pressure my legislature to change the muzzleloader rules. Removing the most effective projectiles (jacketed handgun bullets are great in muzzleloaders), and the most modern muzzleloading propellant (Black Horn 209) from use is bad for the game receiving the projectile. I believe the no sabots rule promotes wounded/lost animals.
Your muzzle loader not going off when you want? Blackhorn209 giving you trouble with reliable ignition? I think we have some answers to what works and how we got here.
Orginally posted to our old website on 9/25/2020 (updated and reposted here to preserve it
Loading a 209 sealed breech system on a Remington 700 MLS
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For this installment I’d like to discuss the different types of 209 primers you can use in your muzzle loader and how we got to the point where you have to understand what is compatible with what in order to have a reliable shooter. I’ll also be adding this to our FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions).
Q: Why do you recommend I don’t use muzzle loader primers in my muzzle loader? Why did the “muzzle loader 209 primer” I tried with Blackhorn209 fail but the standard or magnum 209 primer worked? Why does Western Powders (makers of Blackhorn209) say to use magnum primers, but you say I can use standard primers or magnum primers, but not “inline muzzle loading” 209 primers? Why does the primer say it’s non corrosive, but you say I need to clean my muzzle loader soon after shooting because it will corrode? I’ve got a stainless muzzle loader, do I really need to clean it after shooting?
A: These are all Good questions with seemingly contradictory information.
If you want the short answer, and you have a Remington 700 ML/MLS or a Ruger 77/50, the short answer is: buy our conversion kit, use full powered standard or magnum 209 shotgun primers and pair them withSabots and Blackhorn209. Clean your muzzle loader thoroughly after shooting.
The short answer also can be summarized as: not all muzzle loader and gun cleaning stuff is compatible with all other muzzle loader and gun cleaning stuff. Read and follow each item’s directions. Our kits seal the breech, so our kits are compatible with any muzzle loader powder. Using our kit helps simplify much of the compatibility issues.
If you want the long answer, please keep reading:
Remington 700 Modified with our 209 system feeding a primer into the breech plug to seal it up and improve performance and reliability
The long answer is, well… long:
First lets talk about primers in general and then some history of modern muzzle loader and black powder substitute development. Then BlackHorn209 muzzle loader powder.
Yes: modern primers (and percussion caps) have been non-corrosive for years. Corrosive primers formerly used fulminates, like mercury fulminate: their residues are corrosive, but for quite some time most western countries have used other non corrosive stuff (like lead styphnate). The Eastern Block countries were slower to adopt non-corrosive primers, which is why you are likely to run into old ammo from them that has corrosive primers. So today primers are still labeled corrosive or non-corrosive… FYI corrosive primers that use Mercury Fulminate attack brass and make it brittle. You want to avoid trying to reload any brass fired with corrosive primers… especially if it has had the residue on it for a while.
Regardless of the primer/cap, Black Powder and most substitutes produce corrosive residue (aka fouling). In the unique case of Blackhorn209 it’s fouling is not corrosive, but it is hygroscopic (which coats the bore with water that promotes corrosion). So you need to clean any muzzle loader using Black Powder or a substitute soon after firing.
Some manufacturers responded to this by offering coatings, like cerakote, nickle, etc… others use stainless steel to protect the gun from the corrosive fouling. Regardless of steel or treatments that may slow the corrosion, cleaning after shooting is still required to protect the metal from the effects of these residues. Also breech plugs and their components (along with bolts in leaky breech setups) can be fused into the rifle by the fouling alone. Then factor it the fouling’s corrosive tendancys: if not properly protected before firing and properly cleaned after firing a breech plug is likely to get stuck.
Breech plug left uncleaned and covered in BH209 residue (has been cleaned and scrubbed now)
Further complicating things is that Black Powder and most of its substitutes’ fouling builds with each shot, and tend to be sticky. This fouling will bind and cement stuff together, like breech plugs into barrels. Blackhorn209 is the exception here. It has no more fouling on the 500th shot than after the first, and its fouling is not sticky nor does it tend to lock stuff together. See the breech plug above… it corroded but didn’t get stuck in the rifle after being neglected (it didn’t stick liekly because of the BlackHorn209 powder). But I’ll get into Blackhorn later.
Crud rings became a problem when the venerable standard 209 primer’s with so much more priming compound than percussion caps were introduced to muzzle loading. The crud ring forms near the breech (with Black Powder and all its substitutes… except Blackhorn209). It’s caused by the organic residue of Black Powder (and its first substitutes) mixing with the inorganic residue of the priming compound.
These are cooler muzzle loader primers that reduce crud rings (but don’t work well with BlackHorn209)
Reduced powered inline muzzle loader 209’s (Remington “Kleanbore”, Winchester “777”, CCI Inline muzzleloader, etc) were created to combat the “crud ring.” Standard shotgun shells are loaded with smokeless powder and smokeless needs a bunch of priming compound to get it burning reliably. So standard 209’s are pretty darn hot. With “muzzleloader” 209’s, the basic idea is to introduce less inorganic priming compounds because Black Powder and most of its substitutes are reliably ignited by lower charges than a typical shotgun 209 produced. Reducing the inorganic contaminates makes less of a crud ring and makes it easier to clean the crud ring (when cleaning between shots). So that makes these “muzzle loader” primers hotter than a percussion/musket cap, but cooler than a standard 209 primer.
These are Winchester’s muzzleloader primers (they don’t work well with BlackHorn209)
However, the logic runs a bit circular when looked at retroactively… guns were designed to use 209s in order to leverage their hotter ignition and hence become more reliable (and of course they were marketed as such and the industry made money). Then more black powder substitutes that were easily ignited, but had organic chemistry were introduced (777 etc, they were marketed as better than Black Powder and the market made money). But the guns became harder to reload/clean because of the crud ring… so the manufactures created “Inline Muzzle loader 209” primer’s that aren’t as hot but works well enough to ignite most powders and reduce the crud ring (and are marketed as cleaner, but not as less powerful… and the industry makes money). This frequently confuses folks new to the sport… intuition says use the primers labeled ‘muzzle loader’ in your muzzle loader. Also a general desire to always have the most powerful stuff would mean folks wouldn’t buy the “muzzle loader” primer if they knew it was less powerful: So who would label their primers as less powerful? Folk would want to get the more powerful standard or magnum primer and use that wouldn’t they?
So thats starts some confusion and varying advice on what to use in your muzzle loader. We hope to make it clear what to use and why… so keep reading to find out the rest of the story!
Some folks stuck with the more powerful standard primers,,, and occasionally found that if they were shooting easy loading projectiles (aka obturating projectiles that don’t seal well or lodge tightly in the barrel until deformed by powder combustion: power belts, bore lock MZ, minie balls, etc), that they lost accuracy with the magnum or standard 209 primers, but when they tried the muzzleloader primers the same loose bullets and powders grouped well. They reasoned they were un-compacting the powder charge before it got fully burning with the more powerful primers. There’s so many factors, who knows what the cause is, but the remedy seemed to be using the low powered primer when that rare case arose where full powered primers would not shoot accurately. This also reduced the crud ring.
Still, I always suggest folks try standard or magnum primers first. If they can’t get a good group, –and they are not using BlackHorn209--, then try the primer with the name of the powder they are using or another muzzleloader specific primer (ie try full powered primers first; if you are shooting 777 and it won’t group, try the Winchester 777 primer… or any other low powered muzzleloader 209 primer). Getting a difficult to clean/load situation from a crud ring? Switch to reduced powered primers.
Why do I suggest that you try magnum or standard 209’s before “muzzleloader” 209s? First, the muzzle loader specific 209’s have always been about double the price of standard 209’s. I assume that is because they just don’t make as many. Second, if you can get it to work with more heat, then that seems better to me as more heat will compensate for other issues when you are in less than ideal situations… like its raining or snowing on a hunt and a big buck appears in front of you.
Note this is showing primers related to how ‘hot’ they are and how hot (or sealed up) a powder needs to be reliable. A hotter primer can ignite a powder lower on the scale (A standard primer easily igntes black powder).
Of course if they are using our kit to seal the breech, I always suggest they stay away from obturating projectiles and use sabots with Blackhorn209 and full powered or magnum primers. Our kits work with all 209’s, and all black powder/substitutes. The real question is whether the propellent you chose is compatible with the projectile you choose.
Blackhorn2009 is not compatible with obturating projectiles (projectiles that don’t seal until deformed by the burning/expanding powder charge) and is not compatible with weaker “muzzle loader” primers.
After reduced power “Muzzle loader 209’s” came out Western Powders introduced BlackHorn209 (which is nitrocellulose based) and needs at-least a standard 209. Nitrocellulose is inorganic and cleans up with solvents that also dissolve priming compound residue… so no more soap and water/Windex, no more crud ring, no more fouling in the barrel that builds up with each shot (though you can still get priming compound built up and blocking a breach plug’s flash channel… you may need to pull and clean the priming compound residue from your breech plug every 5-10 shots or so).
So now-a-days we have “muzzle-loader” primers that are not hot enough to set off nitrocellulose powders (like typical shotgun shells use). And now we have a great powder called BlackHorn209 that has a good bit of nitrocellulose in it and thus needs standard or magnum 209’s to go “bang”. However the intuition of some folks is to use the stuff labeled the same as the purpose… got a muzzleloader, so you use “muzzleloader” 209’s… right? Definitely wrong when using BlackHorn209.
Why bother with BlackHorn 209? Its just a better solution! First, it makes a lot less smoke… you shoot an animal, you have a ton less smoke to look through and watch it run off/fall over dead. Also, because it doesn’t build sticky fouling: It doesn’t require cleaning until the end of a day, and it cleans with standard gun cleaning stuff like Hoppies etc. Standard gun cleaning stuff was made to clean up priming compound residue and nitrocellulose fouling, copper fouling, lead fouling, plastic fouling etc, but these modern cleaners do not work as well with Black Powder fouling (along with most of its substitutes).
BlackHorn209 performs better. It tends to be more temperature stable than BP and its substitutes… ie it doesn’t swing as high or low as they do with large temperature swings… (not saying it isn’t affected by temperature… just saying it doesn’t swing as much). And is generally regarded safer as its harder to detonate than black powder. Just look at its MSDS if you want the specifics. If you were to chrony 300gr projectiles with equal volumes of BlackHorn209 against any other Black Powder or substitute, you’ll find BlackHorn209 has an edge in velocity. All of this is why I use and recommend BlackHorn209 with sabots and modern jacketed handgun bullets. Bottomline: you have to use standard or magnum primers with BlackHorn209.
This further gets hard for the novice as most stores typically stock muzzleloader only things in the ‘muzzleloader’ section, but if they have a reloading section that is where they put the standard or magnum 209 primers. Then guys who just want to shoot, hear that BH209 is better, or see a new thing on the shelf, and buy some along with the ‘Muzzleloader” primers in the same “muzzleloader” section. Then try to shoot it in a leaky breech or with a projectile that isn’t sealed setup… and it fails.
They get mad and rail against BlackHorn209 powder. Remember nitrocellulose needs to be sealed/fully contained to burn properly, the simple answer is sabots… and standard or magnum primers. Some may interject that there are other more experimental ways to seal a projectile. Yes there are but I won’t address them as they are not mainstream.
Back of a Blackhorn 209 bottle. Note what it says about primers, compatible sealed breech systems, and min/max loads
Remember the issue isn’t the powder. It’s because the gun is leaky… and/or they didn’t clean the flash channel and burnt primer compound is clogging the breech plug, and/or the breech plug wasn’t made to shoot blackhorn209, and/or the weaker muzzle loader primer is used… and/or the projectile isn’t sealed (like Bore lock MZ’s or powerbelts in some rifles)… In those cases: Blackhorn209 bloopers, misfires, or hang fires, and folks get upset and blame the powder… when they should be blaming themselves for not reading/following the instructions on the bottle of BH209, and/or walking over to the shotgun shell reloading section and grabbing full powered or magnum 209 primers. Or googling it and finding a thread here where I explain how to get it to work in an old muzzle loader built before BlackHorn209 was on the scene (like having us retrofit a vent liner into your old breech plug)… or…
Then you get to today: where some of us make a living helping folks through the mess and getting them to simple effective sealed breech solutions. As most of the mistakes have been made, and most of the answers are in the product’s instructions, or posted/explained/sold here.
As for Western Powders (now owned by Hodgon Powder Company) recommending magnum primers for use with BlackHorn209… all I can do is wager a guess. (I don’t work there nor can I speak for them). I –think– its a combination of: that is what they tested, and tested, and tested. Factored against: if you want it to reliably go off for the best customer experience, have them get the primer with the most priming compound that may correct for a user error (like not fully sealing the breech or projectile, not fully removing oils and contaminates, not cleaning well, etc). Also if hunting in extreme cold, I do recommend magnums myself. Though I must admit, I’ve never myself seen an issue setting off Blackhorn209 with standard primers that were sealed into our kits when using sabots, but I don’t get a lot of negative temperatures to test in (nor do I really want to go out in those temps and shoot a lot).
Perhaps on another installment we’ll discuss how all the 209 primers vary in dimension depending on the company producing them! (important for sealing up 209’s into the breech!)
Also don’t forget that all breech designs are not equal. Leaky breeches not only cover the shooter, the gun’s internals, and any optics in that same nasty fouling, but are hard to maintain and not as reliable as sealed breech systems. Keep reading through the Badger’s Den for answers and explanations on leaky breeches, why and how we seal them up.
Developing a load for your Remington 700 ML/MLS muzzle loader (originally posted to our old website on 11/26/2015) reposted and edited. A lot of this applies to the Ruger 77-50 but this post was written before we started supporting that rifle too.
I often am asked what loads I recommend for Remington 700 ML’s with our 209 conversion kit. When I compose my reply I try to stick to generalities, because it doesn’t matter much what I like, but what shoots well. And you can’t know that without some serious range time. Thus I like what makes sense to me and my rifle shoots well.. but that is in my rifle. Will it work in your rifle? Maybe.
Really what matters is what delivers the damage desired to your target. Also here, I’m not an expert, but I consider myself fairly well read. So I stick to generalities that make sense to me and in developing loads for my rifles what I read seemed to hold true.
Lets handle this in a manner I learned from a wise counselor. In such matters there are typically not absolutes, but ranges. And I like to stick to these three ranges: Good, Better, and Best. Of course if something is “Better or Best”, it fulfilled the requirements of “Good” and did better or was the best. Also “Good” could probably be called “Good Enough.” To keep it simple, I’ll just stick with “Good” on this post. For me, in regards to firearms, “Good” really means safe and effective.
So for owners of a Badger Ridge 209 converted Remington 700 ML we need to start by looking at what the Remington Owners Manual says about performance and safety in regards to bullets, primers, sabots, and powder. If you’ve never read the owners manual, you should! Right now! (Same is true for you Ruger 77/50 owners… read your manual!)
The excerpt below is from page two of the Remington 700 ML Owner’s manual, “Safety is Critical to Performance” (I added the bold and underline for emphasis):
“A superbly crafted gun is only as good as the hands that hold it. You can never be too careful. Shooting accidents are often caused by careless oversights such as failing to control the direction of the muzzle, failing to fully engage the safety, leaving ammunition in the chamber or using improper loads.These oversights can result in the destruction of life, limb or property. There’s no calling back a bullet once it’s been fired, so it’s critical that you know the principles of safe gun handling and storage before you ever take your new Remington firearm out of the box.
The proper use and performance of your firearm depends on correct assembly and maintenance, so it’s critical that you familiarize yourself with the information in this instruction book. Even if you’re a veteran shooter with a collection of Remington firearms, take the time to read this literature. Not all firearms are the same. That means the first step in safe handling is to learn the features and requirements of your new Remington.“
Ok, that’s a lot of good stuff there, but lets emphasize that if you use an improper load you are making an unsafe act. You may get a way with an unsafe act for a short time… until you don’t. I don’t consider any unsafe act as “Good”, thus it could never be “Better” nor “Best”
So what is an acceptable load? Well first lets see what the manual says about loading… and here we have to remember that the manufacturer of the rifle never tested it with powders like Blackhorn 209 (most blackpowder substitutes were not available while the rifle was was in production. Back then there was essentially only black powder and Pyrodex.
Also there are many good options for bullets, sabots, etc now that were not available when the Owners Manual was written. Factor in that with our 209 conversion you have changed the priming method and breech plug and you should realize that you do need to run what it says through the filter of progress in regards to percussion caps, and powder.
Please take the time to read the excerpt below. Below is excerpted from Page 6 of the Remington 700 ML Owner’s Manual... (my comments will be in bold and in parenthasis)
SPECIAL SAFETY RULES FOR MUZZLELOADERS
In addition to the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety, there are several guidelines specific to black powder guns that muzzleloaders must observe at all times to ensure their safety and the safety of others. The following is a brief overview of these guidelines. For full details, thoroughly read this instruction book.
MUZZLELOADING SAFETY RULES
1. NEVER smoke while using your muzzleloader or while near any quantity of black powder or PYRODEX.® (Same is true for any powder)
2. BEFORE LOADING, MAKE SURE THE FIREARM IS NOT ALREADY LOADED. To make sure it is unloaded, insert the ramrod provided with the rifle into the bore to the breech plug and note its position at the muzzle. It should be approximately 1/4 inch below flush with the end of the barrel if the rifle is not loaded. (Badger’s Note: that is with the OEM breech plug, with our breech plug your ram rod should sit just above flush with the muzzle on and uncharged rifle).
NOTE: Nothing can be attached to the ramrod while using it in this way. USE ONLY THE RAMROD PROVIDED.
3. ALWAYS CHECK AND CLEAR THE FLASH HOLE THROUGH THE NIPPLE BEFORE SHOOTING. ALWAYS CHECK THE BARREL FOR OBSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LOADING AND SHOOTING. Before checking for an obstruction, put the safety mechanism in the ‘S’ position and open the bolt assembly and remove the percussion cap and residue from the nipple. Water, snow, mud or any other material can obstruct the barrel and cause barrel damage. (with a 209 conversion you must realize the same is true, but instead of caps and nipples we have primers, flash cambers and vent liners)
4. USE BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX® ONLY TO LOAD YOUR MUZZLELOADING FIREARM. Never use even small amounts of smokeless powder, even if it is black in color. The use of any other propellant may cause injury or death to the shooter or bystanders and damage the firearm. (So by using other black powder substitutes you are operating under the engineering of the powder manufacturer, not the rifle manufacturer. If you read page 12 you will see why Pyrodex is OK… so you’ll have to read and understand the same for whatever black powder substitute you may choose… like Blackhorn 209. )
5. NEVER EXCEED THE MAXIMUM RECOMMENDED POWDER CHARGE CONTAINED IN THIS BOOK. To do so could result in injury or death to the shooter or bystanders. (Pages 16 and 17 state 120 grains (by volume) as the max, older versions of this manual had a 150 gr by volume for the MLS or “Magnum” version… I recommend you stick to this safer, more conservative 120gr by volume max… also if you choose Blackhorn209 you see it’s manufacturer lists 120 gr by volume max as well).
6. NEVER POUR POWDER DIRECTLY FROM A POWDER FLASK OR CONTAINER. A sudden powder ignition from a lingering spark could cause the entire flask to explode. Use an individual charge from a powder measure when loading your rifle. Read and follow your powder manufacturer’s procedures for powder storage.
7. NEVER USE THE WRONG AMMUNITION COMPONENTS. Only use ammunition components that exactly match the caliber markings on your firearm and are meant to be used together. Use only pure lead or Remington® brand loading components when shooting lubed conical bullets. Do not use any other lead alloys with lubed conical bullets as they may be too hard for proper and safe use in your muzzleloader. (so when you use other bullets you are not under the engineering of Remington, but your own or the bullets manufacturer… only use 451-452 bullets in a 50 cal rifle with black sabots… etc)
8. WHEN LOADING, BE CERTAIN POWDER, PATCHES AND PROJECTILES ARE IN THEIR PROPER SEQUENCE AND THAT THEY ARE COMPLETELY SEATED AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. Serious personal injury or death can result if space is left between them. To provide a reference mark for future loadings, mark the ramrod at the muzzle once a projectile has been loaded to the proper depth. NOTE: Be sure to recheck the ramrod mark if you change loading components or alter the ramrod. See Picture 13 on page 15. Never attempt to shoot out a projectile that is not firmly seated against the powder charge or does not seat to the proper depth. Remove these projectiles following the instructions on pages 18 and 19. (witness marks are key to safety!!!)
9. ALWAYS USE COTTON PATCHING. The use of non-cotton patching could build up a static electric charge possibly creating a spark that could ignite the powder.
10. NEVER POUND THE RAMROD. Black powder and PYRODEX are impact sensitive and could ignite from impact. Keep the ramrod directly away from your face or body. (Another reason I like Blackhorn209 is that detonation from impact is much less probable when compared to Black powder or Pyrodex… that is why you have to use full power 209 primers to set it off!)
11. KNOW THE RANGE OF YOUR FIREARM. Muzzleloading projectiles have a range of more than one-half mile.
12. IF THE FIREARM FAILS TO FIRE, BE PREPARED FOR A HANGFIRE. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and wait no less than one full minute before opening the bolt. A spark may have reached the powder without any sound. The rifle could fire at any moment during this minute. If the rifle does not fire within a minute, carefully follow the directions on how to handle a misfire on pages 15 and 16. (With 209’s this is typically caused by failure to properly maintain the breech plug and vent liner… see our FAQ and owners instructions for our kits for more info here).
13. RENDER YOUR FIREARM INOPERABLE WHENEVER YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING. Never place the percussion cap on the nipple until just before firing and remove it immediately if you do not fire. Never carry or store a loaded firearm in a building or a vehicle. Unload it by firing it into a suitable backstop before returning to your vehicle, entering a building, crossing or climbing up or down any obstacle that may prevent you from keeping full control over the firearm, such as a fallen tree, fence, treestand or slippery area. Failure to follow this rule may cause serious injury or death to the shooter or bystanders.
14. BLACK POWDER LEAVES HEAVY CORROSIVE RESIDUES. A thorough cleaning and lubing are absolute necessities before storage and prior to loading and shooting. Follow the cleaning instructions starting on page 19. Always carry loading and cleaning equipment with you in the field. (Another reason Blackhorn 209 is better, no fouling, and a less corrosive residue that cleans up with standard gun cleaning solvents)
15. NEVER USE THE WEATHER SHROUD FOR REPEATED SHOOTING. It is intended for single shot usage. Always disassemble and clean the bolt assembly after shooting with the weather shroud. See page 22 for bolt assembly cleaning instructions. (Our 209 conversion totally eliminates this component)
16. WARNING: Discharging firearms in poorly ventilated areas, cleaning firearms or handling ammunition components may result in exposure to lead, a substance known to cause birth defects, reproductive harm, cancer and other serious physical injury. Have adequate ventilation at all times. Wash hands thoroughly after exposure.
WARNING: Failure to follow any of these muzzleloading safety rules may cause personal injury or death to the shooter or bystander and damage to property. Do not use a muzzleloader firearm until you fully understand and practice the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety and the safety guidelines specific to black powder shooting, to your black powder firearm and to your black powder ammunition components. If you are unfamiliar with black powder firearms, seek professional instruction from a qualified organization such as the International Black Powder Hunting Association, National Muzzleloading Rifle Association, National Rifle Association or your State Hunter Safety program. If you have any questions about the safe use of a Remington® black powder firearm, write to us at Remington Arms Company, Inc., Consumer Services, P.O. Box 700, Madison, NC 27025-0700 or call us at 1-800-243-9700.
Ok… that’s a lot of words there, and you really should read the entire manual and understand it… the only problem is that the OEM system had serious blow back and by using our conversion you must keep in mind that some of it has changed. So back to the original point, what is “Good” and what is “Better” and “Best”?
Considering what the OEM Manual said above, I think with our conversion we could re-write all that. For a Badger Ridge converted 700ML I think you could throw out #15, and summarize that the basic safety above could be condensed to:
1. NEVER SMOKE while using your muzzleloader or while near any quantity of black powder or Black Powder Substitute.
2. BEFORE LOADING, MAKE SURE THE FIREARM IS NOT ALREADY LOADED (Make a witness mark on your ramrod, then use the ram to check if it’s unloaded. If you are not sure look for light through the breech plug, or pull the breech plug and look through the bore of the barrel.)
3. ALWAYS CHECK AND CLEAR THE BREECH PLUG and VENT LINER’S FLASH CHANNEL BEFORE SHOOTING. ALWAYS CHECK THE BARREL FOR OBSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LOADING AND SHOOTING.
4. USE BLACK POWDER OR BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTES ONLY TO LOAD YOUR MUZZLELOADING FIREARM. Never use even small amounts of smokeless powder
5. NEVER EXCEED THE MAXIMUM RECOMMENDED POWDER CHARGE of 120 grains (by volume)
6. NEVER POUR POWDER DIRECTLY FROM A POWDER FLASK OR CONTAINER INTO THE BARREL: USE A POWDER MEASURE.
7. NEVER USE THE WRONG AMMUNITION COMPONENTS.
8. WHEN LOADING, BE CERTAIN POWDER, PATCHES AND PROJECTILES ARE IN THEIR PROPER SEQUENCE AND THAT THEY ARE COMPLETELY SEATED AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. USE A WITNESS MARK!!!
9. ALWAYS USE COTTON PATCHING FOR ROUND BALLS, or SABOTS MADE FOR YOUR CALIBER BARREL AND BULLET or CONCICALS MADE FOR YOUR CALIBRE BARREL.
10. NEVER POUND THE RAMROD.
11. KNOW THE RANGE OF YOUR FIREARM. Muzzleloading projectiles have a range of more than one-half mile.
12. IF THE FIREARM FAILS TO FIRE, BE PREPARED FOR A HANGFIRE.
13. RENDER YOUR FIREARM INOPERABLE WHENEVER YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING. Never place the primer on the bolt nose until just before firing and remove it immediately if you do not fire.
14. BLACK POWDER AND MOST SUBSTITUTES LEAVE HEAVY CORROSIVE RESIDUES. EVEN BLACKHORN 209’s LIGHT RESIDUE WILL PROMOTE CORROSION. Proper and thorough cleaning and lubing are absolute necessities before storage and the bore must be clean and dry prior to loading and shooting. Always carry loading and cleaning equipment with you in the field.
15. ONLY SHOOT IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA, PROPER RIFLE RANGE, ETC., AND WASH YOUR HANDS
Again, before you read on you really should read the entire OEM manual, with emphasis on Pages 12-17.
But at this point I’m sure most have dozed off or skimmed down to the conclusion, and honestly that worries me… you really need to read and understand all of this before you try to load, prime, or fire your rifle… but here’s what i think is ‘at least good’ for bullet, primer, powder selection for a Remington 700ML with a Badger Ridge 209 conversion:
GOOD (Ordered from “Good Enough” to getting better in my opinion)
Bullets :
Lead round balls of appropriate size, with cotton patching, and proper lubrication (50 cal: 179Gr)
Lubed conicals, Minet projectiles, power belts, bore-locks, etc (but probably not with Blackhorn 209 as they don’t always get the best initial seal)
Modern Conicals (like the Hornady Bore Driver, or some of the Thor’s… )
Plastic sabots sized for the caliber of the barrel, with lead or jacketed bullets of a size that matches the inner portion of the sabot (200 to 400 gr) (work well with black powder or any black powder substitute)
Powder:
2F (FF) or FFG black powder
Pyrodex RS, or other ‘stinky chemistry’ black powder substitutes (Either pelletized or loose powder)
TripleSeven (pelatized or loose powder)
Blackhorn 209 (only loose powder… in my opinion loose powder is better as you can dial in a load)
Primer:
Black powder specific 209’s (only use with any black powder/substitute except Blackhorn209)
Standard modern shot shell 209 primer or Magnum Shotshell 209 primer (will ignite any blackpowder/substitute)
Just some of the bullets and sabots I’ve acquired while determining what is best… the box of lead round balls hasn’t been touched in almost 20 years!
Its not hard to do BETTER:
First, I absolutely recommend that you forget round balls; they have horrible ballistics and poor performance in larger game, especially at longer ranges.
BULLETS: You probably will want to stick with sabots and jacketed hand gun bullets; handgun bullets are designed to be accurate, and expand at velocities your muzzleloader will produce. There are lots of pointed hand gun bullets now like Hornady FTX’s that have improved ballistic coefficients. There are also jacketed ‘muzzle loader’ bullets that frequently come with sabots that work well. 200 to 350 gr bullets are typically used in modern inline muzzleloaders with success. You may find that pointed bullets require special loading jags or their points get damaged and accuracy can suffer. My Remington’s have always liked heavier bullets (250gr or more).
I recommend you stay away from .458 (rifle) bullets as many have thicker jackets and do not expand and perform as well at muzzleloader velocities. But if you can find .458 bullets that are made for a muzzleloader then you may have a great bullet. Also some 451/452 Handgun bullets may have thicker jackets: they won’t work well at muzzleloader velocities (The thicker jacketed handgun bullets are typically labeled “MAG”… stay away from bullets labeled “MAG”).
POWDER: Any modern black powder substitute is better than black powder in my opinion. I found that Blackhorn 209 works the best: I get the best accuracy, faster velocities, no fouling between shots, and its easier to clean up. It does cost more, but sometimes that’s how it is: quality costs.
If I couldn’t get my hands on BlackHorn209, or couldn’t swallow the cost, I’d use loose Triple7even powder.
Rem 700 MLS feeding a 209 primer into a sealed breech system
PRIMERS: Any standard 209 primer can work with our breech plug if properly tuned. Some folks play with primers after working up a load and have reported improved accuracy just by changing brands. However as each brand of primer has different dimensions, by switching primers you make suffer a leak or need to re-tune a breech plug, or buy a new breech plug for that specific brand of primer. So, again your mileage may vary. My KISS answer: get whatever standard USA made 209 you can could find a lot of stick with it.
But, hands down I’ve found the older copper standard CCI primers worked the best. Mostly because they always fed and have never stuck in a bolt nose on me. The new CCI 209’s are silver and I haven’t played with them much to endorse them. So I’d use whatever USA made primers I could find and stick with them: CCI’s (standard or magnum), Federal (standard or Magnum), Remington STS, or Winchester.
Anyways, I’ve had primers , even CCI magnums stick at low powder charges and require a dry fire to remove. Winchesters are the worst in our Remington 209 conversions as far as sticking in the nose. However, a dry fire has always removed any stuck primers for me.
My rifles shoot good enough, with my older CCI’s, so I’m not fiddling with primers until I shoot through my stash: I’m sticking to what I know works.
Bottom line: Any Standard (or Magnum) 209 shot shell primer will ignite any black powder or substitute. Blackhorn209 won’t work reliably with ‘muzzleloader’ 209’s (777, Kleanbore, CCI Inline Muzzleloader, etc), so you see I don’t recommend messing with muzzleloader primers in general. They do work just fine with all black powder and substitutes besides BlackHorn209.
WHAT I’VE FOUND TO BE BEST (in a 50 Cal)
Black MMP Sabots, 300 Grain, 451/452 Jacketed Handgun bullets (like Hornady XTP’s and ‘non MAG’), and somewhere between 80 to 100 grains by volume of BlackHorn209 powder, standard 209 primers (Federal, CCI, Remington, Winchester… not ‘muzzleloader’ 209s).
Why do I recommend this as best?
As for conicals, power belts, bore-loc’s, minet’s etc… I personally I’ve seen better terminal results on game with sabots and good jacketed hunting bullet, but some of the new conicals (ie not most of the powerbelts) are a good option too as far a terminal performance. The only conical that works well with BH209 seems to be the newer Hornady Bore Drivers.
My opinion on PowerBelts: You could use powerbelts (just not with Blackhorn209), but they do have a bad reputation for under performing on game in many situations. Besides not working well with BlackHorn 209, I have always done better staying away from them; I’ve read a lot of bad things about some of these as all but one version of the powerbelt doesn’t have a good copper jacket that controls expansion, while holding the bullet together. However your rifle may like them, and they are ‘good enough’. Just remember: Blackhorn209 has trouble with these sort of projectiles that require the initial expansion of the powder charge to seal them to the bore… especially in a Remington 700ML. If you are using Blackhorn209 you should stay away from these and use sabots!
Advice on choosing a sabot for better or best results: You will probably have the best accuracy with the thinnest sabot petals. I’ve read in various books that its because the sabot separates from the bullet ‘cleaner’ and quicker with thinner petals… I’ve also heard its because the thinner petals allow for better concentric alignment of the bullet to the bore. Honestly, thinner petals just seem to work; I don’t claim to know why, nor do I really care about the ‘why’. I believe it be true because I’ve seen it prove out at the range: Use the sabot with the thinest petals for best accuracy.
Remember what I said about .458’s above… they will give you thinner sabot petals, so you proably can get them to shoot well, but are they the bullets with thinner jackets that are made to expand? (Too many 458 bullets are thick jacketed and made for centerfire rifles used on large/dagerous game). If you know the bullet is made to expand at low speed and you can find sabots for them in your .50 you may have good results.
While 458’s are a mixed bag, as long as you stay awy from the “MAG” 451/452 handgun bullets you can pretty much be assured you’ll get prpoper expansion: so that’s why I say that 451/452 jacketed handgun bullets are better: I can be really sure they will expand properly.
So my recommendation of what is best, is counter to what some would like… ie the smallest diameter bullet, with the highest BC, going at the fastest speed (requires thick sabot petals). From what I’ve seen accuracy is all about thin sabot petals. And its accuracy that lets you reach out and hit distant targets where you want. High velocity and fast flat shooters help at range, but only if they are accurate to start.
I know my 50 cal rifles shoot black MMP sabots with 45 cal bullets better than they do green MMP sabots with .44 cal bullets… or with harvester crush rib sabots… but not by all that much. I haven’t proven this with my .54 yet, but so far it shoots purple MMP sabots with 50 cal 300 grain FTX bullets very well. So well I don’t know if I’m going to do any more development… I’ll probably just use it as a loner/back up rifle and hunt it as is.
All that said, I have clients that swear their 50 cal rifles love the 44 cal bullets with MMP green sabots.
I have one 50 cal rifle that likes 250gr XTP’s the most. It shoots them noticably better than 300gr XTP’s, or 250 or 200gr FTX’s… I wish it didn’t because I like the idea of slightly flatter shooting (of the pointed FTX). I still load it with 250 gr XTP’s when I’m shooting at deer… because that is what that rifle shoots best. At this point I think I’m rambling and you can see that we may be splitting hairs when it comes to BC’s and velocities in muzzleloaders.
So your mileage may vary!
Bottom line: Stick with Sabots, handgun bullets, full power 209 primers, and Blackhorn 209 and you’ll definitely be doing better and perhaps even best…
How do you get thebest out of your rifle? I suggest you take a few of the better options above, go to the range, apply the safety rules and procedures you find in the Owner’s Manual and see what your rifle likes.
Your way forward: If you don’t own any muzzleloading components yet, I encourage you to convert your Ruger 77/50 or your Remington 700 ML to our 209 kit, and pick up some MMP Sabots from us. Then go to your local sporting goods store and get a box of correlating size quality handgun bullets, 209 Primers, and Blackhorn 209 (along with standard black powder accessories like a powder measure, flask, starter, etc).
Read the owners manual and the directions on your powder bottle. Then go to the range and work up your loads as they direct.
Hope this helps and sets you on a good safe path. Truth is that you have a lot of choices to make. In general, if you pick better components and loose powder. Then work up per the manuals, you will probably quickly find out what works very well if not best.
Always follow the ten commandments of shooting and special muzzle-loader safety rules
Comments from our old website I though were worthy of moving over with this article:
Comment from John 9/8/2020 Many years now with the 209 conversion. LOVE IT!!! I highly recommend it. I shoot Black 50 Cal MMP sabots and 45 hand gun bullets with 100grs loose powder and at 100 yard 1″-1 1/2″ 3 shot groups.
Thanks again for a great upgrade.
John
Reply from Badger Ridge 9/9/2020
Thanks for the positive feedback! We appreciate your business!
Comment from Bruce Hicks 3/31/2020
I am interested in your 209 conversion kit hows the grouping after conversion Thank You Bruce
Reply from Badger Ridge 3/31/2020
While we make no claims on accuracy, the kit does tend to improve it, as sealing up the leaky breech tends to produce more consistent pressure, which usually translates into more consistent velocity, and hence better groups. But really there are so many factors in accuracy (namely the guy behind the trigger), that we cannot make any claims.
Comment from John Brackin 10/11/2017 I just had my older Remington ML700 converted with your Badger Ridge 209 conversion kit. Are you are saying that this older Remington can safely shoot 100 grs. of BlackHorn 209?
Reply from Badger Ridge: 10/11/2017 Yes, 100gr by volume is in the safe charge range, per the Remington Manual, and the information on the powder bottle. Both state starting load of 80Gr by volume; maximum load of 120gr by volume. My rifles have never shot best at any charge over 100gr by volume.
Comment from Nicolai 9/24/2022
Happy customer here, reporting in on great success with the Cheddite CX2000 209 primers, that are readily available. I spent 5 minutes time tuning ing the breech plug per the instructions, have had zero blowback, zero bulging in the primers. In fact all I need to do is tip the gun to drop the fired primer from the bolt face.
This old remington 700ml now fires 100% of the time with 91 grains of Blackhorn 209 (by weight) with the Powerbelt Platinum 338 grain projectiles. I shot a few 270’s and did not enough the same level of accuracy.
Thank you gents.
Reply from Badger Ridge 9/24/2022 Thanks for the positive feedback.
First, you are using way too much BlackHorn209. 91gr by weight would be an over charge. Go by volume (80-120 gr by volume is the range listed on the bottle). By my math you are 10 gr by volume over… nuts… an over charge can’t be good, much less better, nor best.
Again: All of my rifles have always shot the best between 80-100 gr by volume of BlackHorn209
Also, after about 100-110gr by volume with a 338gr projectile… you will probably be throwing unburnt powder down range… whats the point in that?
Those foreign primers are tricky to get to feed, swage, and seal. That’s why I recommend only US made primers: Glad you got them to work and are satisfied.
Also, I’ve had a customer use a very similar load, and it worked fine when it was 50-60deg F (while he was at the range). He then went out west, was in the mountains with a cold soaked gun, and the Blackhorn209 wouldn’t ignite. I believe it was because the powerbelts don’t seal as well as sabots. And Blackhorn209 needs to be fully sealed or it won’t ignite… especially when its cold and it doesn’t have a 100% sure seal.
The trouble is that there are lots of variables, and one of which is that ‘powerbelts’ have many different versions with different features.
Bottom line: I’d suggest using the Hornady Bore Driver over any Power Belt. Your mileage will vary: best of luck! Hope you bag a bunch of big ones!
Comment from Steven 11/1/2020 I purchased the Badger Ridge conversion kit for my Remington 700ML. The 209 primers get stuck in the slot on the bolt. Is there a defect in the bolt or do I need to try different primers
Reply from Badger Ridge 1/2/2021
Sorry I missed that you posted this question and didn’t post back sooner! (I was hunting out west when you posted!)
Primers stick in the nose in two different situations.
The most common is spent/fired primers sticking in the nose. The instructions tell you how to deal with this: dry fire on the spent primer. The second strike of the firing pin loosens the stuck primer. Everytime I’ve had one balloon (typically winchester primers) a dry-fire on the spent primer loosened it and it fell out. I even made a video with some sticking primers that shows this. (And its written in the instructions).
The other time primers stick in the nose is when there are burs from the manufacturing process that grab unfired primers. I test every nose with a primer, look for burs and remove them to prevent this from happening to customers, but I’m not perfect. If you are having unfired primers stick in the nose, look for the burs and remove them (I use a dental pick and small jewelers files), or send it to me and I’ll do it and send it back.
Yours,
Tom www.Badger-Ridge.com
Comment from Mike Cervantez 3/26/2019
Tom,
Great article. I just purchased on of these muzzleloaders still the box from a friend. I am just a beginner at muzzle loading so this purchase is just a beginning. I have a question about loads. If the heaviest load is 120 grains, do manufactures make pellets in increments of 10 or 20? Or, is this only for powder loads? I know the pellets come in 50 and 100 grains. I have read about guys shooting 150 grains through these firearms but I am not taking that chance. I am good with 100 grains.
Thanks Mike
Reply from Badger Ridge 3/26/2019 I’m far from an expert on pellets: I use loose powder because I’ve found it best to be able to dial in my load. All my rifles have shot best somewhere between 80 -100gr (by volume)/ I specifically love Blackhorn209 (which only comes in loose powder).
I’ve only seen 50Gr pellets myself. I’d never risk my life and limb on something I heard on the internet: 120gr by volume is the max for the Remington 700 ML/MLS per Remington’s documentation. Can’t get 120gr when adding in increments of 50gr.
Plus your rifle doesn’t have enough barrel to burn more than about 100grains of any sort of powder/pellet. If you were to shoot higher quanties over snow, or in front of a high speed camera, you’d find lots of unburnt powder/pellets going down range.
Comment from Dan Wescott 9/5/2019 I bought a used 700ML and started with 80 grs of triple 7 powder but was shooting low with original open sights with 223gr powerbelts. I live in Colorado and can’t use sabots here so I’m looking for any information on non sabots that work best for deer or elk. I can easily switch powder to Blackhorn, but can’t switch to sabots. (Wish I could). My rifle has not been converted to the BR209. Any help is appreciated.
Reply from Badger Ridge 9/7/2019 Our conversion kit works great with all powders. Like you mention you have to use a powder that is compatible with your propellant, so if you are not using sabots, BlackHorn209 is not recommended. However Hornady Bore Driver bullets are Colorado legal and seal well (and seem to work well with Blackhorn powder).
I wrote a lengthy blog post here about Colorado rules and what I’d do:
Short answer: Personally I’d use Hornady BoreDrivers or even Thor’s (I don’t care for Powerbelts… they have a bad reputation in terminal performance).
Comment from Mark Ervay 12/9/2019 I have owned the 700ML since they first hit the market. Shot many sabots through my gun using 2 pellets (100gr equiv) with horrible results on accuracy. The plastic casing was burning up and causing the bullet to tumble. I then talked to hardcore muzzleloading guy and he told me the scrap all that and go to loose powder (Goex) and I used Hornady Great Plains.
I used like 85 gr of powder and dead on accuracy with that setup. I switched to the Horaday FPB 350 bullet and 100gr powder with the CCI Mag caps and not one misfire. My point here is you need to find what works best for your gun. I will not switch to 209 primers as long as the caps are working fine for me.
Reply from Badger Ridge 12/9/2019
Feel free to keep shooting what works and is safe. I’d wonder what bullets you were using with what Sabot… the Remingtons like 240gr or heavier bullets (usually the black sabots with 45 cal 300gr XTP or equivalent will work best in these rifles).
Anyways, when you get your first misfire with the original leaky set up, I hope its at the range and not when you have a nice trophy in your sights! (I get calls from guys all fall who had their first misfire or two when a nice buck was in their sights). When you get tired of crud blowing back into your face and all over the place, are ready to simplify clean up, and go with a better more reliable system we’ll be ready to help you!
Comment from Pell Kennedy 10/24/2022
I’ve had the bolt nose kit on my 700ML since it came out and it’s great…except for putting the primer in place with my arthritic 72-year-old fingers! I drop a lot of them! Is there any kind of gizmo, a capper, to hold the primer and make it easier to put in place?
Reply from Badger Ridge 10/25/2022
I don’t know of any tool that would do what you are asking.
One of the design goals was to not require any tools to prime/de prime. To remove the primer I usually just roll the rifle on its side and catch them as they fall out. But you’ve got my wheels spinning as I have arthritis, but not so many trips around the sun… I may come up with something. When I do I’ll post about it here in the Badger’s Den.
Origianlly posted on 17 Sep 2015 to our old website
Gabe R, from California took the time to write the email below, so I thought I’d share:
Tom:
Good evening . I finally got a chance to try out the new Badger Ridge Primer system a couple of weeks ago. Here’s how it went:
I made a trip out to the local desert and used the following components for my test: Western Blackhorn 209 powerHornady .452 cal. 300 gr. XTP bulletsHarvester .452 cal. E-Z Load premium High Pressure SabotsW209 primersWinchester W209 primers were used for a couple of reasons:
1. They required the least amount of reaming to fit the breach plug (as compared to Remington and Cheddite), 2. I have about 5000 on hand so these saved me a trip to the local sporting goods store.
Overall, the results have been very promising with the three tests yielding the following average velocities:
80 gr. powder – 1552 fps* 100 gr. powder – 1795 fps* 120 gr. powder – 2000 fps*
All loads were chronographed using Competition Electronics, ProChrono Digital.
There was no soot or blow-by on any of the fired primers, however there were some issues when using 80 -100 gr. of Blackhorn powder. In two cases, the primer backed out and became stuck in the bolt face. These were cleared by dry firing the spent primer. There were no issues when firing 120 gr. loads with all six primers easily dropping out of the bolt face when the rifle was canted to the right.
*I asked Gabe, and he reported he shot one 3 shot group at 80gr and 100gr, then two 3 shot groups at 120gr to get his average velocities.
Your are welcome Gabe! Thank you for your candid feed back from the field. I trust our Remington 700ML 209 conversion will serve you well, and wish you the best of luck on your hunts!
Also it is common for the Winchester primers to blow out the back of the primer cup (aka balloon) and frequently require a dry firing to remove. That is why I recommend and use Federal, CCI, or Remington. Also these three are similar enough in size that if you tune for one of them, you can probably switch to another without any leaks.
Back in 2015 Randy Wakeman reviewed a Badger Ridge 209 converted 700 MLS. I didn’t care for his approach as it ignored well established and understood norms. What he published really revealed his ignorance. I contacted him and he refused to consider showing the same video/information but from a more humble and accurate perspective: so I originally wrote this article and posted it to our old website in August of 2015.
If you watch his video, I ask that you please watch the entire video. I sent this rifle (my 209 converted hunting rifle) to Randy fully cleaned and coated with oil… so that explains the first hang fire (oil soaked powder). Randy told me that he shot it as it came; he didn’t dry up the oil I left it coated with.
The second shot, I agree with where Randy eventually ended up: those new Federal B.O.R. LOCK MZ™ bullets (or even power-belts) and Black Horn 209 don’t work well with Remington 700ML barrels (because the Remington barrel is a bit bigger and they don’t seal well or at all before the powder starts burning). Too bad Randy didn’t edit out all his false speculation as to why he had bloopers. He did eventually figure out that Blackhorn 209 needs a good solid seal for proper combustion, or it won’t burn and you’ll get a blooper. This was known and well established. Randy eventually proves this, but fails to admit his own lack of understanding at the begining.
I guess I failed him, by not insiting he followed a certain test plan: I left it up to him and in the end it sort of burnt me while illustrating Randy’s quirks too. BOTTOM LINE: WATCH THE ENTIRE VIDEO
After Randy fires those first two shots he uses sabots and Blackhorn 209. You then can see the true performance of our 209 conversion kit: Sabots and Blackhorn shoot well.
Also the rifle I sent him is not a ringer… its just my deer rifle with a simple fixed 4 power scope. It is the same rifle my dad gave me back in 2002… many years ago. I added a scope and our 209 system. That’s it.
Also, Randy is not shooting my primer/load/bullet/sabot combo, so the rifle is not even sighted in for his load!
Here’s Randy’s video…. Please take the time to read the comments (FYI he blocked/deleted mine)
Note the lack of blow back on the sides of the primer randy shows in the video. I tuned that breech plug to feed and seal the older CCI’s I used in the rifle. Randy used Winchester and Federal primers. Each brand will vary a little and seal in a little differently.
Originally posted at our old website on 12 May of 2016
I, just like every shooter I know, grew up shooting smokeless powder.
Other than accompanying my dad to the range and again on a very frigid muzzle-loader hunt one December (before I was old enough to hunt on my own), I didn’t really have any exposure to black powder rifles. And besides my dad used Pyrodex so that wasn’t a real black powder experience… according to the purists I knew.
Black powder was just a footnote in my hunter safety class. My first interaction with ‘real’ black powder was when I took my model rockets to my Grandfather’s farm. Yup, that’s Badger Ridge. We were having trouble getting consistent ignition on the rockets via the standard “solar igniters”. My Grandfather told me to hold on; he’d be back. He left me and the rest of the family in the hay field with all the gear I hauled up. He came back with a tin of FFG Goex, and a small paper funel he crafted on the spot. He filled the rocket nozzle with the Goex, inserted the solar igniter and sealed it with some scotch tape. My problems with consistent ignition on my model rockets was solved with a bit of Grandpa’s extra smokey oomph!
Too bad my mom wouldn’t let me do that anywhere else but with Grandpa at Badger Ridge. My Grandpa also was known to have saltpeter and blasting cap solutions to stubborn stumps… He was the man you called if you wanted those stumps out of the ground in an instant.
(But as usual I digress, and am forced to put in some sort of disclaimer: Badger Ridge does not recommend nor condone the use of flammable firearms propellants for purposes out side of the legal purpose they were designed for. Always follow the manufacture’s instructions and all safe practices… OK I feel better now.)
Before I shot my first muzzle-loader I had put thousands upon thousands of smokeless rounds down range. Albeit most were .22LR via my participation as a small bore competitor; I did my share of shooting service rifle as well. All those rifles got cleaned regularly with standard gun cleaning products. So when I found out I had to use soap, water, and stuff that smelled like wintergreen to clean and protect my muzzle-loader I had a bit of an adjustment to make.
But I made that adjustment; I made up a special muzzle loader tool kit with all the necessities so that I could grab it and be certain I had what I needed to take care of my 700MLS.
I smelled the stink of Pyrodex with my dad, and a similar but weaker stink when I first started muzzle loading on my own with Triple Seven. I never got nostalgic about the stink and non petroleum based cleaners I put to work on cleaning my rifle. To me shooting should smell like nitro cellulose (smokeless powder). So while I never got nostalgic on the stink, I will admit I thought about rubbing bore butter on to ‘freshen’ myself after a few days of hunting.
I honestly found it difficult to clean with soap and water at the more rustic hunt camps. It down right sucked to get all wet when it was so cold outside. I knew my breech loaders didn’t need the urgent clean up, and could be made good with a few patches of Shooters choice or Hoppe’s and a ‘bit of oil. That all changed, and things got back to normal once I discovered Blackhorn 209.
See, all other black powder substitutes that I know of use stinky chemistry that just doesn’t work with modern petroleum based gun cleaners. Other black powder substitutes tend to have sulfur in them (which stinks) and need plain old soap and water to clean up.
Black powder chemistry doesn’t do well when burning in the presence of petroleum oils and greases. I always thought about the incompatibility of anti-seize and black powder; so I worked to keep the two separate but they were always in close proximity on my breech plugs.
But Blackhorn 209, uses the same chemistry (nitrocellulose) as smokeless powder. Hoppe’s # 9, Shooters Choice, Break-Free CLP, Mobil1, or whatever your favorite bore cleaner and oils work just fine with it. Also it’s residue is not inherently corrosive, or at least no more than normal smokeless powder. So I don’t have the same sense of urgency in cleaning that muzzle loader. Remember though, the residue is hygroscopic… or in other words it attracts water from the air. And water on a metal promotes corrosion. So you do want to clean your rifle, just not quite as urgently!
Take a minute and read what the bottle has to say about cleaning
Remember my separate gun cleaning kit for my muzzle-loader? It got merged with my normal gun cleaning box and that’s that. But that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Those other powders foul and leave deposits that are not only corrosive, but gummy messes. Though I do have to acknowledge that my experience with Triple Seven confirmed it was better than what I had seen with others who used black powder or Pyrodex. But Blackhorn 209 blows them all away. No more fouling than what I’ve seen in my smokeless guns. Never any trouble pulling my breech plug, though I still use a bit of anti-seize on it. No swabbing between shots at the range. No changes to accuracy as the rifle fouls itself into a constricted mess (Triple Seven was an improvement here too).
About the only thing you still shouldn’t do is leave your muzzle-loader charged for a while or go a long time with out cleaning (see the picture for a breech plug that was in a rifle that was fired multiple times and then left charged for about 8 months). The 416 stainless steel plug in the picture came out just fine with no trouble, but it had some surface pitting. It was cleaned and scrubbed with steel wool before the pic below was taken. Any other powder would have wrecked that rifle and froze the plug in the breech.
Breech plug left in a rifle fired with multiple shots of BH209 and then left charged with Blackhorn 209 for 8 months before it was pulled. Never leave any muzzle loader charged for a long period, even un-fired powder can promote corrosion. I can’t even imagine how it would look if any other powder residue was left on it for 8 months.
But it gets even better. You see Blackhorn is safe to use in modern inline muzzle-loaders and it gets more velocity in that same black powder safe pressure range.
Always read every word that is on the containe before using any muzzleloader powder/pellet
In modern inline muzzle loaders it can be used volumetrically the same as black powder. A by volume charge of Blackhorn 209 will give you more velocity (all other things being equal) than black powder or other substitute. Though I think it is important to note that the BH209 load data stops at 120 Gr, (see the picture of the back of the bottle). So I stop working up loads at 120 Gr. Even in my muzzle-loader is rated for 150 Grains (the 700 MLS “Magnums” were rated for 150 grains of black powder by Remington). I figure discretion and safety rule, so I don’t go over 120 grains. You can read more about that on the BH209 site (they recommend a max of 120 gr by volume).
With standard to heavier projectiles, BH209 gives more velocity for the same volume of powder. I don’t fully understand all the physics of powders burning and pushing projectiles, but I understand more velocity equals more energy and a flatter trajectory. I don’t think you have can too much of either of those.
I need to make it clear. I don’t have stock in Western Powders or Hodgon (the makers of Blackhorn 209 was Western Powders, and they were gobbled up by Hodgon) nor am I getting any money from them. I just love the product.
But in everything in life there are trade offs. The first trade off for Blackhorn 209 is its price. Outside of finding it on sale, you’ll almost certainly pay more for a container of it than any other black powder substitute. Also the jug that is about the same physical size as a 1 lb jug will only have 10 oz (by weight) in it. But seeing 100 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209 weighs only 70 grains one could do some math to get volumetric equivalents and find that 10 oz by weight is roughly equal to buying 14.3 oz of black powder, so still more expensive but less significantly when one looks at it volumetrically.
One last drawback is that some state’s rules for black powder hunting don’t allow black powder substitutes or may have wording that cause people to worry that Blackhorn 209’s ‘nitro cellulose chemistry’ would put them in jeopardy of violating the law.
For instance in Michigan, where I frequently hunt, muzzle-loaders are not allowed to be charged with smokeless powder for hunting. But the regulations say that “Black Powder Substitutes” are allowed. One look at the Blackhorn 209 label shows that it’s “High Performance Muzzle-loading Propellant”. No where on it is it called “smokeless propellant.” Thus, it is a black powder substitute with the same combustion classifications as other black powder substitutes. So to me, Michigan regulations are clear; BH209 is allowed. I used it without concern when I lived in Virginia as well.
Some other states were not as clear when BH209 first came out. I’ve read that folks who had written their state’s regulatory agencies for clarification, got obtuse, bureaucratic, indefinite replies. So beware and research the rules in your state. But now-a-days this seems like most states have rewritten their rules to clear it up.
At the time of writing this in 2015: Nevada stated its not allowed there; though I think their logic is faulty. BH209 is chemically nitro cellulose (so is smokeless powder) but BH209’s low pressure performance, design for volumetric equivalence to black powder, and combustible status (“Propellant Solid”) is the same as black powder. Smokeless powder has to be labeled ‘smokeless powder’ so that you don’t use it in your black powder gun and blow it up. I think anyone who reloads would get the difference and recall every can of smokeless powder being labeled “smokeless powder”. And once you figure in BH209 is safe in black powder cartridges for those old black powder only breech loaders, how could BH209 be anything but a modern black powder substitute? The law should care about performance not chemistry. So I don’t get the hang up.
Also the stuff is just plain safer as its harder to ignite than black powder. So why ban it? Are you against progress? The entire line of thinking that makes BH209 “bad” seems to have parallels to the purists that think that muzzle-loading should be restricted to ‘real’ black powder, side locks, flint locks, patched balls, and buck skins. I’m having flash backs to when Pyrodex first came out… anyways back on topic: If you want to know more read this. And you can read more here as well.
Please take the time to read the entire bottle before using any muzzle-lowder powder/pellet
So being harder to ignite: the last trade off is ignition. Like I said BH209 is harder to set off (and thus safer) than black powder and its other substitutes. So, you need a real honest to goodness 209 shot shell primer to ignite Blackhorn 209. Those “Black powder” 209 primers are really primers with less ‘oomph’ as black powder and its stinky substitutes need less ignition heat to set them off. So you can get away with using a lower powered primer with them. But not with Blackhorn 209; it has to be a real full power, designed for a shot-shell, 209 primer. (I understand that guys using brass cases to feed their ‘Remington 700 Ultimate’ type breech plugs use magnum rifle primes as well, but that is outside the scope of this Badger’s Den).
These leaky breech systems will not work with BlackHorn209
So if you have a standard 700ML without a 209 conversion, BH209 won’t work. Or if you have one of the leaky breech 209 mods for the 700ML, Western Powders doesn’t recommend you use Blackhorn209 (just read the back of the bottle). You probably won’t get proper ignition; Blackhorn 209 needs to be sealed up in order to properly combust. But even if you do manage to ignite it, you’ll have even more blow back, as as BH209 has ever so slightly higher pressures (that is how it gets higher velocities) than other substitutes.
Made it out to the range today… but forgot the battery on the charger for the good camera. Made due with the bad camera and took one shot with my cell phone.
Hope you enjoy watching a zero blow back video extravaganza… note that I leave the cover off the wind-age knob… I wouldn’t recommend that with a non converted gun… (was walking in a new load with 240gr 44 cal XTP’s, green sabots, and 120GR of Blackhorn209.
I usually shoot 45 cal xtps, but I had these 44’s I wanted to play with… strangely enough the POI was to the right of my usual .45 load… I was expecting a vertical change not a horizontal one).
